Schools of Choice
Tue, 05/31/2005 - 19:49 — GeorgeH
I remember growing up in Methuen we had problems with people from Lawrence coming to our schools and this was illegal. Was it wrong? Is it wrong for a parent to want a higher education for their children without all tuition of a private school?
Here in Michigan we have a program called "schools of choice". My children are enrolled in this program. I am not sure of all it's limits but I do know I can send my children to any school in this area anyway. The only stipulation is that I fill out an application per child and I transport.
Here we are scouted. Our schools advertise for kids to come to their school. Our schools fight to keep their scores up so parents will want their kids to come there. What do they get in return? For each student the school gets so much money from the state.
I understand that's not how things work in Massachusetts. But maybe it should. Then Lawrence wouldn't have the money to operate unless they bettered themselves and Methuen schools could build more and hire more. Although I'm sure things would change by then and Lawrence and some surrounding schools would get better.
Just looking for some thoughts or maybe plant a bug in some of your brains. If you ever wanted to do something about it or look more into it.
Here is a story that ran in the Tribune I think yesterday. They make it sound so negative. Again I ask....Why is it a bad thing that a parent wants a good education for their kids?
Littlefield: Nonresident scofflaws will have to pay
By Jason Tait
Staff Writer
METHUEN ââ¬â As many as four dozen students each year try sneaking their way into Methuen schools by lying about where they live.
But the common practice may end up costing parents big in the pocketbook due to a new state law that targets such scofflaws.
School Superintendent C. Phillip Littlefield is issuing a warning to parents of so-called "nonresident students." Under the new law, violators would have to pay tuition for any period of time a nonresident spends in Methuen schools, Littlefield said.
"They can be held responsible in a court of law for the cost of that tuition," Littlefield said. "People should know about that."
Littlefield said there is a perception among some Methuen residents that the school system is rife with students who say they live in the city but actually come from other communities.
But the problem is overstated, he says, and the school system, which serves some 7,100 students, actively ferrets out such nonresidents ââ¬â three to four dozen a year, he said.
A part-time attendance officer personally goes to the homes of each new student, from kindergarten to 12th grade, to verify residency.
"We do deal with it aggressively and with a no nonsense approach," said Littlefield.
Stephen Francis, Methuen's district administrator, says people regularly report nonresident students to his office. The attendance officer will pursue those leads, Francis said.
"We hear people complain about the fact that there are nonresidents around," Francis said. "We'd love to get names and addresses."
Francis said the nonresident students usually come from border communities such as Lawrence, where students can simply walk into the city or parents can take a short drive into Methuen. Students will give fake addresses to the registrar, or say they are living with family or friends in Methuen.
"There are plenty of places they can come in," Francis said.
School Committeeman Robert F. Vogler believes he knows why students are coming to Methuen.
"I'd like to think it's because we have a very good school system," he said.
The issue surfaced this week when William M. Manzi III, a mayoral candidate, said a crackdown on such scofflaws would be a priority of his administration. Each student costs the district $7,300 each year and those costs can add up, he said.
"There is a cost to it and it comes right out of our taxpayers and we want to avoid that," Manzi said.
Heidi B. Perlman, spokeswoman for the Massachusetts Department of Education, was unable to describe the problem on a statewide level because her department does not track this issue, she said.
Methuen reporter Jason Tait may be contacted at (978) 946-2000, or .
BOX:
State Law Chapter 76, Section 5
"No school committee is required to enroll a person who does not actually reside in the town ... Any person who violates or assists in the violation of this provision may be required to remit full restitution to the town of the improperly attended public school."
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- by GeorgeH
Re: Schools of Choice
There's a significant flaw in your thinking. How can they better themselves without proper funding? If what you are suggesting happens, the Methuen, Haverhill, and Andover school systems will become even more overcrowded than they already are (if that's even possible).
I agree that changes need to be made, but I'm not sure that would work in the Merrimack Valley.
Re: Schools of Choice
I don't think it would get that far. I think you start from the top and get better educators in there. That has to be the reason things are worse in certain systems. Putting up with to much sh*t. I think eventually it will all even out.
If Lawrence loses it's funding or most of it, it will only go to a school that is obviously better equipped to educate. Then the teachers losing jobs in Lawrence will move on to Methuen or wherever and be watched by successful educators.
As far as over crowding....the teacher to student ratio shouldn't change because you get so much per student and that means more teachers and more classrooms. If you have to build them so be it. The area I live in here they have built 3 high schools bigger than MHS in the last 5 years and are expanding one now. It works. It does.
I doubt it would ever get as far as to have to close down Lawrence schools but it could be enough to scare them. If not this system then something like it. Like I said, it works.
Re: Schools of Choice
Yes, if you could build more, bigger, better schools... it might work. At that point, you could just make it a "regional" school, solving this problem all together. But where? It's easy to forget that New England suburbs don't have the land to build the size of school that they need to have the ideal student/teacher ratio. There simply isn't room. The only area I can think of in Methuen for a larger school is the old ski hill, and that's no place for a school.
Re: Schools of Choice
Got me there...LOL I haven't been out there in almost 9 years.
What happened to all that wooded area that surrounded MHS? I know some is gone but isn't there some there that the Hospital owns? Or even on the other side of MHS?
The old ski hill???? Is that at the entrance to Forest lake?
Re: Schools of Choice
The ski hill is still out there. I went out to E-coli lake not too long ago to reminisce. It looks really small compared to memory.
Oh well. If I were faced with sending my kids to Lawrence schools, I might scam them into MHS too, but only if I couldnt afford a Private school.
Re: Schools of Choice
George,
The problem with that is that Lawrence ALREADY is in trouble. They are not accredited (as far as I know) at high school level. Thus, there is signifigant reason for parents who want a better education for their child to take them OUT of the Lawrence school system. I feel for them.
However, we pay taxes as Methuen residents to give our children the teachers and schools that Methuen is known for. Unless these Lawrence (and Haverhill, etc) parents wish to pay two town taxes (one for Methuen and one for their hometown) then I see it as breaking the law.
As far as finding land to build bigger schools...the land you speak of surrounding the HS is gone. It has been used to build better grammar schools. We now have 4 K-8 grammar schools in Methuen. As for other land...there really isn't any. maybe way out by Dracut, but I am not sure.
Re: Schools of Choice
Really all I was saying was:
1. There is a big problem with Lawrence schools.
2. Methuen and Lawrence need something to change.
3. This is what we do here.
I know every system doesn't work in every area. But obviously the one Massachsetts has now doesn't either. I think someone needs to find out what works in other states and see what fits the best in MA and try it out.
Re: Schools of Choice
interesting topic u bring up George, makes a good case, but i think you are all right, if i remeber correctly form college i did a demographics report for some class i was taking and if i remeber correctly, Lawrence is about 6-8 square miles and Methuen was around 25-30 square miles, (i apploogize, i shoulda got the exact sizes im relying on memeory). with that said Lawrence has twice the Population as we Methuen, putting it into a bigger shite (shit) sandwich. if we have no where to build new schools what the hell are they gonna do in Lawrence.
remember this when we elect our next Govenor, Tom Reilly is a big supporter of the Illegal imigrants getting into the school system at the higher levels, it will only be a matter of time before the lower levels are at 40 kids per classroom because schools will be taking in "aliens". this topic could use a whole seperat post
Rappa
Re: Schools of Choice
Here we go again! I still feel the same way. All kids need a better education. If you let the Lawrence kids in and reward Methuen (with state funding, taking it away from Lawrence) you will see Lawrence fight to get that funding back! It works here in Michigan it can work. It will work. I can't fight this fight for you there in Massachusetts, you have to. I only challenge you parents to look into the pros and cons of the Schools of Choice program we have here in Michigan and write to a politician...or all of them. It works. I see it 1st hand! It's great!
Published: October 01, 2006 12:00 am
Drawing the line:Illegal students targeted in Methuen schools
By Jill Harmacinski
Eagle-Tribune
View as a multiple pages
METHUEN - They come in private buses and taxicabs, looking for what they see as a free and better education.
They are students who live outside Methuen's borders and are suspected of being the reason why enrollment spiked again this year, forcing city taxpayers to pick up the tab for three extra teachers and a teachers aide.
"I would not even venture to guess at a number," said Mary Ellen Kelleher, the new director of pupil services. "But I believe that there are a lot of students coming here from out of (the city), and the issue may be more widespread than we first thought. But that is only a suspicion."
The issue is nothing new. Teachers, parents and School Committee members have complained about the problem for years, and it's unclear how many outside students may now be attending Methuen schools. Most come from neighboring Lawrence as well as New Hampshire, where kindergarten isn't free as in Methuen.
"There is no reason we should be educating kids who don't live in Methuen," said School Committee member Martha Welch. "We have our own kids here we need to educate."
But Kelleher is cracking down. She is leading the charge by working closely with school principals, staff and investigators to pinpoint students who live outside Methuen.
They are using such tactics as bringing in police to check the license plates of cars dropping off students. Letters were recently sent to a number of Methuen landlords asking them to verify the residency of some Methuen students.
And a small number of parents have already been asked to withdraw their students from Methuen schools, Kelleher said.
With 7,200 students, Methuen spends $7,300 annually to educate each student. Welch said if the out-of-towners were removed, more money would become available for Methuen kids. She said she "absolutely supports" Kelleher's efforts.
"I think it's great. I think this is an issue no one had time to really look at before," she added.
State law bars students from crossing city and town borders to attend school, unless the community participates in the school choice program, which Methuen does not. And parents of children caught skipping over to other districts may be forced to pay tuition costs as a penalty.
In the spring of 2005, former Methuen School Superintendent Philip Littlefield said as many as four dozen students try to sneak their way into Methuen schools annually. He claimed the district aggressively ferreted out the nonresidents by having a part-time attendance officer personally visit the homes of each new student from kindergarten to 12th grade.
The issue resurfaced again at the start of this school year after the School Committee had to hire three new elementary teachers and a teachers assistant to reduce classrooms of 30-plus students.
Superintendent Jeanne Whitten said there are tell-tale signs that out-of-city kids are illegally coming to Methuen schools. For example, a giant red flag went up when teachers saw some children being dropped off at school in taxicabs and by private bus services.
"You must ask yourself, why would a child take a cab to school?" she said.
Then there are the children themselves.
"Children are telling us they don't live here," she said. "They tell us their addresses are in different cities."
Whitten said parents of kids living outside of the city should be forewarned.
"It's time for them to go," she said. "We are taking this issue very seriously and it has to stop. ... We really want to put people on notice."
Staff reporter Jill Harmacinski can be reached at 978-946-2209 or by e-mail at .
Re: Schools of Choice
I tend to agree with the school of choice program, but there should be a fee associated with it as well as providing for their own transportation. Don't know the fee, but maybe something along the lines of what the percentage of Methuen taxes normally associated with school funding for each. This means that if more students came from out of Methuen, then each one woudl have to contribute and that would allow for hiring of more teachers and other necessary resources.
Someone said around $7k. That would be under $600 a month per student. This would not preclude those residents from paying their own taxes which means that Lawrence or other school districts would still have tax money to improve if they had the right leadership.
About Methuen not being large enough, I don't thikn that is an accurate statement at this point. Methuen is relatively large at about 22.9 square miles if I recall Mr. Whiting's retelling.
You can see a map of it for yourself here and note there is plenty of empty space in many areas. I am not advocating eliminating all green space but there is land to build a school on if there was a will (and money) to do it.
For space I am thinking of the areas up Howe Street and Hampstead Street. There is also a good sized area north of Forest Lake. We should not forget that if you drop a large school in either of these areas you'll also have to build the roads and services necessary to support them. That doesn't even factor the local residents and their input. We should consider that most people probably would not want a high school to be built next to their backyard for a host of valid reasons.
So I would support a schools of choice program, but only one that had a valid economic strategy behind it.
Re: Schools of Choice
The school system my kids go to just built a second high school. Businesses are flocking over there. Ice cream stores, gas stations, etc. I used to live over where it was built and I guess I wouldn't have liked the traffic, it is only twice a day. Then again we don't have the crime you do there either.
I think $600/mo will still make parents sneak their kids into school still. I also think that Lawrence would not get that kick in the ass they need if they have more money for less students. The tax money should follow the student. I don't think it's that hard. I don't know how each city gets their money from the state but maybe it could be taken out of that and the state would in turn give the other town (Methuen) extra.
Has anyone seen the John Stossil report about this? http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml I won't go into the specifics but he gives lots of examples of how this way works and the other doesn't. I believe he had 2 shows on 20/20 and maybe wrote a book about it.
It's a monoploy! Lawrence won't get better cause they don't need to. They don't have to. They still get paid. Does anyone have a coworker that is such a slacker that you can't believe he/she is ok with cashing that check every week? But you know eventually they will lose theri job because they suck. Well right now Lawrence is the slacker and will continue to slack until the boss takes some pay away!